Sunday, March 13, 2011

14 Comments:

Blogger kishke said...

Horrible, horrible. Just heartbreaking. If I had the power to wipe them and their despicable culture from the face of the earth I would do it in a heartbeat.

March 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM  
Blogger rr said...

I'm so sorry that you knew him personally! It makes the horrow even worse (if that is possible). I have known many of the victims of terror and their families. It never gets easier. This one was so gruesome and horrific! HKBH should give the survivors the Koach to go on!
Kishke...I just had an argument with my son. He posted sentiments similar to yours on facebook. I asked (actually demanded) that he remove the comment. Now I'm not so sure that I was right. In any case I think that I was defriended...oy.

March 13, 2011 at 7:42 PM  
Blogger kishke said...

My apologies if I offend, but that's how I feel.

March 13, 2011 at 10:41 PM  
Blogger rr said...

No, Kishke...Ch'V...you misunderstood. You don't offend...I am sickened and am fighting my own feelings of anger and hatred...the reason that I was upset with my son was not for feeling the way that he did, but for posting it on facebook! Even thought the readership is very high on this wonderful blog it doesn't worry me to post true feelings here. We are all among friends. Facebook on the other hand is a whole other story.

March 13, 2011 at 10:55 PM  
Blogger rabbi neil fleischmann said...

RR - Thanks. I knew the grandfather, whose alive and caring for the children right now, personally.



I've seen many sentiments like yours around - Kishke. I do not agree. I was debating in m y mind how to respond. The mishnah in Avot about not trying to talk to/console your friend in his time of anger/mourning comes to mind. I am not one for public political discussions nand I will disengage if this goes in that direction. I just wanted to say for the record that I don't stand behind statements that put down thems and theys and speaks of wiping them and they off the face of the earth.

A dear friend, Noam Shapiro, was asked by his daughter Ayelet (7 years old), "Why did they have to do that?" Hi reaction to himself was, "Hashem Yirachem." Then he reflected, "I guess there is no more sheltering your kid when you actually live here..."

When asked what he said to her, he replied:

"We talked about how there are many nice arabs, but some who are not. Some do not think that the Jews should be in Eretz Yisrael. To this, she asked, 'OK, but why kill the family?' To which I said, 'Some of them simply do not like Jews.' At least I think that's how it went. It's a real tough balancing act - trying to be honest about the nature of those who would like to do us harm, while not creating a radicalized child who sees thing too black and white, and also making sure your seven year old is not too scared to go to sleep at night. I'm sure our conversation was only one of similar, countless conversations throughout the country. I pray the day comes when these conversations do not take place between parents and little children."

Kol HaKavod Noam,I can't imagine a parent/human being doing better than that.

March 13, 2011 at 11:21 PM  
Blogger rabbi neil fleischmann said...

I posted my comment before I saw your second round of comments.

I appreciate your second comment/apology if you offend, Kishke.

RR - I'm not sure that blogs are generally more friendly than Facebook. Bli ayin hara, poo poo poo, i think there's a nice culture on my blog. Thank G-d. Also, being anonymous makes it very different than Facebook. I appreciate your comments and disposition.

March 13, 2011 at 11:40 PM  
Blogger rr said...

I don't think that blogs are more friendly necessarily. I think that yours is...and subsequently I feel safe on it. This discussion is very touchy for me as I remember fondly the days of bartering in the shuk and truly enjoying the interactions. I carefully educated my children that not everyone in any race or culture can or should be lumped together. There are always good, and evil...including even in our own. However, it is getting harder and harder to defend my position to my children as they watch the multitudes of nightmares that have occured in a very real way to people who they know. But I have even heard the families of terror victims say that the reason we say Ha-shem Yikom Damam is becuase it is not for us to be angry and attempt live the rest of our lives in hatred...it is for HKBH to set the record straight...may all of their memories be for a blessing and may they be a meilitz yosher for klal yisrael.

March 13, 2011 at 11:58 PM  
Blogger Marisel Valentina said...

Unidos

March 14, 2011 at 5:16 AM  
Blogger Marisel Valentina said...

Unidos siempre.

March 14, 2011 at 5:17 AM  
Blogger ari kahn said...

I am 99.9% sure that this is a different family - and NOT the Rav Chaim Fogel from BMT

March 14, 2011 at 8:42 AM  
Blogger ari kahn said...

just checked - now 100% sure it is someone else - not that it lessens the pain one iota.

March 14, 2011 at 8:45 AM  
Blogger kishke said...

They are bloodthirsty people who want us dead, and who take action to achieve their aims. We are not obligated to be nice in the face of such hatred, nor will niceness do us any good.

March 14, 2011 at 10:59 AM  
Blogger rabbi neil fleischmann said...

Thank you Ari. I am sorry for the mistake.

On Motzai Shabbos, the first website article that I looked at had a story that included information about the grandfather and a picture of him. The picture jumped out at me, because I knew who that was - that was the Rav ChaiM Fogel that I knew.

I see that the website has since removed the picture of the grandfather. I guess they were mistaken in identifying him and therefore removed the picture.

This is the website with the story, where I got the picture from, but where it no longer is:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041237,00.html

March 14, 2011 at 11:36 AM  
Blogger kishke said...

Here's Robert Avrech's take:

http://www.seraphicpress.com/archives/2011/03/post_211.php

It's one with which I agree.

March 14, 2011 at 7:57 PM  

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